00:00:00:07 - 00:00:14:12 Speaker 1 So this is Dermot Jones conducting an interview for the Speedway at Wimbledon Stadium oral History Project on the 20th of April, 2026. So I'm going to ask you some basic questions. This is all for the archive. So what's your name? 00:00:14:14 - 00:00:15:14 Speaker 2 Graham Brodie. 00:00:15:20 - 00:00:18:03 Speaker 1 And where were you born? 00:00:18:05 - 00:00:19:07 Speaker 2 Kingston. 00:00:19:09 - 00:00:20:09 Speaker 1 And what year. 00:00:20:09 - 00:00:22:13 Speaker 2 Were you born? 1942. 00:00:22:15 - 00:00:26:08 Speaker 1 And what did your parents do for a living? 00:00:26:10 - 00:00:33:24 Speaker 2 My mother was what they used to call domestic duties. She was a housewife. My father was a GPO engineer. 00:00:34:01 - 00:00:42:20 Speaker 1 So these are all in sections. The first one is going to be days. So what years did you go to speedway at Wimbledon Stadium? 00:00:42:22 - 00:01:00:20 Speaker 2 I started going in 1952. I don't remember exactly when, but sometime during 1952 and I continued, I did say off and on, but general terms I continued until they closed down basically. 00:01:00:22 - 00:01:03:18 Speaker 1 Would that be in the noughties, early 2000 or early? 00:01:03:22 - 00:01:08:19 Speaker 2 Yeah. 2000, 2001, maybe that sort of time. Not very good on dates, but. 00:01:08:21 - 00:01:09:16 Speaker 1 When it closed down. 00:01:09:17 - 00:01:15:03 Speaker 2 Yeah. When it closed down the first time. When. 00:01:15:05 - 00:01:18:13 Speaker 2 I did send a little press cutting. 00:01:18:15 - 00:01:19:14 Speaker 1 Right. 00:01:19:16 - 00:01:24:05 Speaker 2 Which sums up the final meeting. Okay. 00:01:24:07 - 00:01:27:17 Speaker 1 So because there was a kind of closing when it went to Eastbourne. 00:01:27:18 - 00:01:36:21 Speaker 2 That's right. Well, that was it. That was what I, what I call the final closing because I didn't I didn't follow them when they reopened for a couple of seasons. Editor. Junior level. 00:01:36:23 - 00:01:44:15 Speaker 1 For the clarification. Okay. Right. So can you tell us about your very first trip to Wilderness Speedway? 00:01:44:17 - 00:02:07:24 Speaker 2 No, I don't remember very much except that obviously at that age, what would it be? Ten years old. I was captivated by the the noise, the lights, the smell, the whole entertainment. And yes, it was by those days, standard. It was very professional and an eye opener. And I was hooked. 00:02:08:00 - 00:02:14:15 Speaker 1 Okay, well, I'll tell you, this is kind of kind of cover some of the same ground about what are your early impressions? 00:02:14:17 - 00:02:25:15 Speaker 2 Oh, well, I say I was, I was hooked, I just loved it. I don't remember much about it, except, as I say, the spectacle and the noise and everything else that goes with speedway at that, in that stage. 00:02:25:16 - 00:02:28:05 Speaker 1 A lot of people mentioned the smell. What did it smell like? 00:02:28:11 - 00:02:44:08 Speaker 2 It's hard to describe if you've never smelt Castrol R, which is what it was. Which are they used for lubrication? You don't know. It's almost a unique smell I couldn't describe. It's just, you know, when you smelt it, you know it. 00:02:44:10 - 00:02:47:24 Speaker 1 Can you tell us about your family history in speedway? 00:02:48:01 - 00:03:17:03 Speaker 2 Yes I can. The the Brody dynasty, if you like. As far as Wimbledon Speedway is concerned. Is that my grandfather, Robert Brody, attended the first ever meeting at Wimbledon in 1928. He was a Mitcham councilor, and I'm not sure whether he went officially or whether because he lived in Boundary Road, which was only a few a few hundred yards away from here, really. 00:03:17:08 - 00:03:44:11 Speaker 2 It was only a walk. So he went he obviously enjoyed it. He had a bit of a sporting background. He'd been a cyclist and a footballer. So a head of sporting interest. So he was at the first ever meeting at Wimbledon. Shortly afterwards he introduced my father, who got the same excitement out of it and interest. So my father would, would have followed from the early 30s. 00:03:44:13 - 00:04:13:16 Speaker 2 Right. Well, for the rest of your life, really? He always said that Vic Huxley was his was the top rider those days. He was the star at Wimbledon in the 30s. So in 1952, as I said, my my dad decided it was time to introduce me to Speedway. So we came. Me and my brother came. We were allowed on in school holidays only. 00:04:13:18 - 00:04:45:21 Speaker 2 Because in those days Wimbledon ran on Monday nights, not on Thursday. I noticed your blurb the other day when I was reading. It was 70 years of Thursday nights when it was almost half the, I'm thinking until the early 60s at least. It was a Monday night. So yeah, so so I came became involved in and as I say, got the bug and followed followed the sport for a long time till basically until they closed down in 19. 00:04:45:23 - 00:05:02:18 Speaker 2 Oh I'm trying to think 2001, that sort of time when I by that time had become a referee and I was the referee at the final meeting. So there's a complete circle, if you like, of the Brody involvement with, with Wimbledon Speedway. 00:05:02:19 - 00:05:11:11 Speaker 1 The next bit is the experience which you have touched on a bit, but so can you describe Wimbledon Stadium as it was? 00:05:11:16 - 00:05:43:19 Speaker 2 As it was when I first came here in 52? The the stand on what had been what became the start straight had been destroyed in the Blitz, so it wasn't used. So it was a complete literally a bomb site on the on the far side of the track. We would sit on the, on the opposite side and it wasn't until again, early 60s, I think maybe late 50s when the newsstand was built and it became then the starting area from the, from the, from the other side of the track. 00:05:43:20 - 00:05:46:19 Speaker 2 So. 00:05:46:21 - 00:06:11:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. What was it like then? Well, it was it was buzzing. It was quite crowded in the 50s. It was still a, you know, a major entertainment that wasn't the competition that there is now. And yes, it was, it was a different night out. There weren't so many things you could do. Certainly in the evenings it was the cinema or no television in those days, or very little. 00:06:11:14 - 00:06:27:24 Speaker 2 And it was one of the big entertainment things that you could do. So yeah, seeing racing Under lights, which is always fascinating and far better than seeing it in the daylight. Yeah. It's just it just talked me straight away. So. 00:06:28:01 - 00:06:32:16 Speaker 1 And was there a particular place that you would watch the races from? 00:06:32:18 - 00:06:50:20 Speaker 2 Well, as I say, yes, we, we would sit opposite what is what became the new the new stand. And I trying to remember I don't I think the starting gate was still on the far side but so we were like sitting opposite that. So on the back straight. 00:06:50:22 - 00:06:51:23 Speaker 1 Why on the back straight. 00:06:52:02 - 00:07:08:01 Speaker 2 I don't know. That's where dad took us. So I had watch. When I started to go on my own, I might have watched it on the on the soda fourth bends, which was perhaps a bit bit better, I don't know, but, you know, move around and no, no particular space out of that. 00:07:08:03 - 00:07:10:04 Speaker 1 Didn't have to be faithful to one particular spot. 00:07:10:05 - 00:07:12:04 Speaker 2 No, no. 00:07:12:06 - 00:07:18:03 Speaker 1 Oh, and how affordable was it to get in? 00:07:18:05 - 00:07:51:20 Speaker 2 It was quite reasonable. I can't remember the prices. And of course, in the early days dad would pay. So I don't, I don't know, but as a child it would probably be something like a six month or a shilling old money for, for a child and maybe two and six, half a crown for for adults. I don't know, I'm guessing, to be honest, because it did not something that ever, ever occurred to me until I got a bit older and perhaps a bit of money in my pocket when I started work and didn't worry too much about it. 00:07:51:24 - 00:07:53:20 Speaker 1 And how busy was it? 00:07:53:22 - 00:08:12:00 Speaker 2 Oh, it was pretty busy. I don't know what the crowd figures never really published crowd figures, but I would say there would. There would be, let's say, 7 or 8000 people in the stadium for a for most matches and maybe more for big ones. 00:08:12:05 - 00:08:14:10 Speaker 1 That kind of felt like as a proper crowd. 00:08:14:11 - 00:08:28:21 Speaker 2 Oh yes. Yeah. Yes. If you've been used to going to, to watch the football at Plow Lane and standing on the terraces, you know, it would, it would be more comfortable than that. You weren't packed in, but it was there were seats and. Yeah. 00:08:28:23 - 00:08:34:22 Speaker 1 But he tell us about any merchandise or programs and stuff that was on sale. 00:08:34:24 - 00:08:47:15 Speaker 2 No not really. Again, I did send through some scans of early programs which might be of interest. 00:08:47:16 - 00:08:50:17 Speaker 1 But would you buy a program for each fixture? 00:08:50:19 - 00:09:02:20 Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah, we would have done. Yes. Yeah. And I had I kept them for many years, but I, I, I sold them some time ago when I moved house actually. 00:09:02:22 - 00:09:05:11 Speaker 1 And other kind of merchandise. 00:09:05:12 - 00:09:18:18 Speaker 2 But I remember I had a badge, a leopard badge, plastic with a picture of Ronnie, more on it. And I would proudly display that Mr.. Where at school sometimes I didn't get ribbed for it, but. 00:09:18:20 - 00:09:22:06 Speaker 1 And what kind of food and drink could you get there? 00:09:22:08 - 00:09:39:22 Speaker 2 I don't know, I don't remember ever eating, let's put it that way. But living close fairly closely, we'd, we'd have a meal before we came out and I don't, I don't remember particularly having anything special or maybe a packet of sweets or something, but. 00:09:39:24 - 00:09:41:16 Speaker 1 We heard there were hamburgers. 00:09:41:18 - 00:10:00:05 Speaker 2 Oh, there would be. Later we go back to the early 50s. Even sweets were on ration. So until the early 50s. So, you know, there wasn't the same sort of availability of food, but I would guess it would be maybe, maybe hot dogs in the car park or something like that. But I don't think there were huge catering facilities, as I remember. 00:10:00:05 - 00:10:00:22 Speaker 2 Anyway. 00:10:01:03 - 00:10:06:22 Speaker 1 Thank you. And could you describe for us a typical night there. 00:10:06:24 - 00:10:34:06 Speaker 2 For me or. Yeah. Yeah. Well we would, we would come down that would drive the car and park opposite almost next to where the old plow pub was. And we walked down and we walked past through where I was saying to on the way here. There used to be a spur from the trolleybus route, which ran down Garrett Lane into the stadium, where there was a a turning circle. 00:10:34:09 - 00:10:59:02 Speaker 2 So we could have necessarily have come that way by trolleybus. So we'd passed a row of trolley busses and certainly going home, we pass a row of trolley busses waiting to pick the crowd up, and then we just go into the stadium, find our seat, find the suitable seat and sit and wait. And then at 730 we would get the sound of blaze away. 00:10:59:07 - 00:11:15:08 Speaker 2 The march on Old Sousa march, which was always the signature tune of Wimbledon Speedway. And what would happen then is that out of the pits would come the track of. 00:11:15:10 - 00:12:03:08 Speaker 2 All improper uniform dark trousers, red sweaters with a star on it and a berry, and they would march out and they would march out. Fairly military style, pretty, pretty well disciplined, followed probably by the Saint John's Ambulance Brigade, who were in charge of first aid or whatever, and then the riders who would probably amble out being sort of people, they were, and they would march up to the starting area where the bikes had been placed, where Ronnie Green, the promoter, would introduce everyone, introduce the match, and they say, and then the riders would get on their bikes and ride slowly round. 00:12:03:09 - 00:12:25:00 Speaker 2 No, no helmets on, just very gently round to wave to the crowd. The track staff would march to their to their various points on the on the Beatles, basically because they were used to call them rakers, but literally they raked the track back. 00:12:25:02 - 00:12:47:12 Speaker 2 I'll come again in a minute. So they would go to their the John's Ambulance brigade would sit in in the field somewhere, they would have a bench or two. And then the riders go back to the pits and get fully equipped, jump on the bikes and round. They came for the start of the first race and then it was one after the other. 00:12:47:14 - 00:13:18:23 Speaker 2 Yeah, the record I'll just touch on, we call them the rakers because that literally was their main job. They would stand on the bins where where the bikes going round would tend because they broadside would tend to throw the loose dirt out towards the fence area. And in order to keep some evenness in the track, one of their jobs would be to pull as much as they could in the interval between races back into the inner part of the track, helped by the tractor who would be going around doing a general grading. 00:13:18:23 - 00:13:24:08 Speaker 2 But they would they would add to that. So that was that was the main job of the track staff. 00:13:24:10 - 00:13:29:21 Speaker 1 Could I just couldn't ask, was there any commentating commentators or announcements during the racing or anything? 00:13:29:21 - 00:13:56:05 Speaker 2 Not during the racing. We didn't have commentary. We would have we would have an announcer. We had a guy called, I never found his first name, DC holding, who had been the announcer since before the war, I think, but he was replaced by a guy called Ken Tozer. Ken was quite an interesting character. It was not a very good announcer, but he came with a Greyhounds. 00:13:56:07 - 00:14:21:03 Speaker 2 He was the Greyhound announcer. So when Mr. Holding retired about the same time, I guess he moved in. He was a bit of a side this. He ran a hotel in Worthing, but he spent three, maybe four nights a week at Wimbledon Stadium doing the announcing and then drive home and lock up his hotel, I suppose. And he, he gave me some some funny stories over the years. 00:14:21:03 - 00:14:32:11 Speaker 2 But as I say, with respect to him, he was not the best of announcers. There we are. He spoke well, but without not much knowledge. 00:14:32:13 - 00:14:37:14 Speaker 1 For clarification, the rakers weren't actually on the pitch. Where do they stand? 00:14:37:15 - 00:14:58:22 Speaker 2 They stood in field a bit back. We hadn't. Health and safety hadn't been introduced then. So they were saying quite near to the inner edge of the track, ready to step onto it when when the race finished or if a race, if there was a stoppage, somebody fell. They might be needed to go and help lift the bike back or whatever was needed. 00:14:58:22 - 00:15:10:08 Speaker 2 So so that would be just on the infield around the inner edge of the of the track, just off the inner edge of the track. 00:15:10:10 - 00:15:15:01 Speaker 1 In the meeting. Oh, yes. Yes. So how would they like finish. 00:15:15:03 - 00:15:49:11 Speaker 2 The night. Would finish with there would be varying varying numbers of heat according to the to the the the competitions changed every year, it seemed to me, but there would normally be 13 heats of league racing, followed by an interval, followed by what we used to call the second halves, which would be an individual competition, various sorts and a couple of novice races, stuff like that, culminating in the the final, the grand final of the individual. 00:15:49:13 - 00:16:09:08 Speaker 2 We about seven, maybe eight races in the second half to and like the current sort of attitude which is you save the best to last. This was not necessarily the best, but it was it was the second half. And so that's how it would end. Everybody would get up and go home. 00:16:09:10 - 00:16:14:01 Speaker 1 And those individual races, did they contribute to like world championship grading? 00:16:14:03 - 00:16:47:22 Speaker 2 No, no, they were second half. And what happened? What in the good days shall we say. Quite often they would invite other riders from other tracks just to appear in the second half. So you would have someone like, let's say Freddie Williams from from Wembley or Jack young from West Ham, who would come over just to compete in a couple of races in the in the second half and generally speaking, would qualify for the final and presumably be a bit of a prize then or whatever they did with the money. 00:16:47:24 - 00:17:08:00 Speaker 2 Interestingly, in the very, very early days when speedway was first introduced, riders and they were called leg trailers in those days whereby they would they would broadside with their legs behind them and knees almost touching the ground. 00:17:08:01 - 00:17:19:24 Speaker 2 Fairly soon afterwards came the foot forward style, which is still followed to us, generally extended. So that's a little to say. They were not not knee grazers. They were leg trailers. 00:17:20:01 - 00:17:31:19 Speaker 1 Out somewhere along the line. But thank you for that clarification. Next bit is all about being a fan. So can you tell us about any particular riders or teams that you followed? 00:17:31:20 - 00:17:35:22 Speaker 2 Well, I follow Wimbledon basically. 00:17:35:24 - 00:18:05:10 Speaker 2 My history was when once Wimbledon. Well, let me put it this week I moved away to Essex in my early 20s and I was working in London, so the opportunity to come to Wimbledon was not was not readily available. And in fact, what I, what it did was to go to West Ham when they opened in 1964, I think. 00:18:05:12 - 00:18:16:23 Speaker 2 So it was from there that in between I'd done a bit of traveling around and followed it a bit, but not because I was because I was working and. 00:18:17:00 - 00:18:36:10 Speaker 2 So I transferred my allegiance. But I started going to West Ham because it was a convenient place to go. And that's where my experience as a fan finished and my experience as a referee began. So that's when I stopped being a fan and became jumped over the fence, if you like. 00:18:36:16 - 00:18:38:21 Speaker 1 What about particular riders? 00:18:38:23 - 00:19:03:05 Speaker 2 Oh, Ronnie. Ronnie Moore was was absolutely my favorite. As I say, I had a badge with his. He was he was my first favorite. And they say never meet your heroes. But I you know, I met Ronnie in several occasions later on after he'd retired. And a perfect gentleman, a lovely, lovely man and really enjoyed his company when he was living in New Zealand at that time. 00:19:03:05 - 00:19:22:09 Speaker 2 So we didn't meet very often, but that was a good experience. And Barry Briggs was the other one who was my second favorite, if you like. I remember him starting in the very early 50s when he was. 00:19:22:11 - 00:19:51:03 Speaker 2 He was very rough and ready, shall we say. And in fact, one stage, I think they tried to get him banned because he kept knocking people off but became, again, you know, a multiple champion and is one man that, you know, even now is recognized, you know, all over the place. So he was my other hero. And then there were others in, in the Ron Howard was a good was a good writer in those days. 00:19:51:06 - 00:20:07:12 Speaker 2 Reg Trott, who ultimately became a referee colleague of mine, Alf Hagen and yeah. By that time, as I say, I was moving my allegiance, if that's the right word, on the other side of the of the Thames. 00:20:07:15 - 00:20:16:23 Speaker 1 If there was one thing about those riders that appealed to you like a general, what drew you to particular riders like that? 00:20:17:00 - 00:20:43:09 Speaker 2 Ronnie in particular, I always, you know, he always seemed to have a quarter of his throttle to spare. You know, I remember the times he passed riders on the back straight with apparent ease, and he always seemed to have that little bit extra. And he was a gentleman rider and a natural rider. I think at the time he was the youngest rider ever to qualify for a World Championship final. 00:20:43:11 - 00:21:01:15 Speaker 2 He was possibly the youngest rider ever to win it at the time. He went in 1954, which was the first world final I went to see at Wembley. And yeah, so that I think was what particularly attracted me to him. 00:21:01:17 - 00:21:18:18 Speaker 2 As I say, it was haram scarum all over the place until he settled down and he was a fellow countryman of Ronnie's. And they were they were great friends. And Ronnie taught him a lot, settled him down and made him into helped to make him into the rider. He became. 00:21:18:20 - 00:21:25:17 Speaker 1 Right. Excellent. Thank you. Can you tell us about different teams or leagues at Wimbledon? 00:21:25:19 - 00:22:01:17 Speaker 2 The league? Well, yes. The league. When I first started going, the league was a great extent. Still London centered. There were tracks. There were league tracks at. Let me go through them Monday, Wimbledon, Tuesday, West Ham, Wednesday, New Cross, Thursday, Wembley, Friday, Harringay and I did achieve once doing the whole all five in a week by public transport when I was young teenager I suppose. 00:22:01:19 - 00:22:26:24 Speaker 2 So outside of that, there were, there were, there were teams sometime on and off from Birmingham. Manchester, Bellevue was was another well-known one, but they were the they were the main. It was mainly a London based top league. Anyway, there were other teams in second and even third divisions. In those days when we had them, they were all outside London. 00:22:27:01 - 00:22:33:10 Speaker 1 And within the the club itself. Did you have like junior and seniors? How did it kind of work with? 00:22:33:12 - 00:22:55:09 Speaker 2 No, there were juniors who, as I say, would would perform in the second half of the meeting. Again, as the formula changed over the years, there would be either seven men or maybe eight main teams, which would probably include two reserves who might or might not get a ride or might get extra ride and stuff like that. And they were the juniors. 00:22:55:11 - 00:23:15:03 Speaker 2 So the progression would be from complete novice to maybe, yes, a second half, another second half race, and then into the reserves and then up in the team if you if you progress. It was not really formalized. That was just the way it worked. 00:23:15:05 - 00:23:22:02 Speaker 1 And how accessible were the riders to fans? 00:23:22:04 - 00:23:56:06 Speaker 2 I think they were fairly accepted. We weren't allowed in the pits and stuff like that, which is a bit more usual now. And of course, again, when I, I suppose when I came in The Father, it was always, you know, we finished off we go and we'd go home. There was a little bit of a culture that came in where sometimes riders, not particularly here necessarily, would maybe repair to the bar after the meeting and supporters would, would be able to approach them and talk to them. 00:23:56:06 - 00:24:12:06 Speaker 2 So they were accessible to that extent. And I suppose there I say it was before drink driving laws came in. So but I never experienced that at Wimbledon, not because it didn't exist, I just wasn't aware of it, put it that way. 00:24:12:08 - 00:24:17:19 Speaker 1 And what was the general demographic of the fans? 00:24:17:21 - 00:24:47:07 Speaker 2 Families? Mainly it it has always been a male dominated sport. So it was, it was, but it was families because, because mums and dads would come with the kids and, you know, it would be a family. It's always, always sort of advertised as a family sport. So in those days, yes, there were tended to be more, more, more fathers than mothers, but there was certainly a certainly mothers there. 00:24:47:07 - 00:24:56:23 Speaker 2 And there were girls who would come and, you know, fans who would wear the scarves and, you know, full of cheer, scream at the riders and stuff like that. 00:24:57:00 - 00:25:03:12 Speaker 1 Thank you. And would it be imagined back then it's probably mostly white working class. Would that be? 00:25:03:14 - 00:25:31:07 Speaker 2 I think that's a fair yes, that's a fair summary of the demographic. This I mean, Wimbledon was was not the cosmopolitan area is now indeed England wasn't or the UK wasn't. So yes, it tended to be. Yes. White working class. I suppose it's not an that I'd like to be saddled with, but that's a fact. Yeah. It was. 00:25:31:08 - 00:25:44:15 Speaker 2 You know, if you like your poor man's. Well it wasn't even a poor man's formula one because Formula One had already been invented. Then it was, you know, if you like, a little. Yes, a cheaper form of motor racing, if you like, or motor sport. 00:25:44:17 - 00:25:50:06 Speaker 1 And to what extent did the foreign riders bring along their own fans when they came here? 00:25:50:08 - 00:26:24:02 Speaker 2 Oh no. Again. And yes, until very recently, for a start, there were many foreign riders. Most of the riders were English or generally from Australian. 1 or 2 other Commonwealth countries, usually South Africa. Those were the three. If you like Commonwealth countries, that might provide the odd foreign rider, but they were able to travel backwards and forwards. They were, they were obviously they were. 00:26:24:04 - 00:26:54:17 Speaker 2 I don't know about visa difficulties or whatever, but when first sort of a group of foreigners would have been the Swedes in the late 50s into the 60s, but they rode as part of the Wimbledon team and not, you know, as Swedish. So maybe there would be one Ollie. Nigel, as it was, was the first. I think he would be the only Swedish rider in the team, so he wouldn't bring any fans with him. 00:26:54:19 - 00:27:05:18 Speaker 2 In fact, very often they lived over here during the season. If the, if the Swedish league was not as remunerative or as busy. 00:27:05:20 - 00:27:11:01 Speaker 1 And can you tell us about any rivalries between different speedway teams. 00:27:11:03 - 00:27:42:17 Speaker 2 Oh, Wimbledon. Wembley of course, was always, you know, that was that was the big one. And yes, there was always a great rivalry when either way, either when we went to to Import Stadium or when they came to us. But it yes, that was, that was the local derby. I mean they were all fairly local obviously being in London, but that was the one that really sort of but I think probably there was always that little element when, when was another London team involved. 00:27:42:18 - 00:28:12:04 Speaker 2 So but Wimbledon, Wembley were the was a great rivalry if you like. And the irony is that again, before my time, when the Olympic Games was held in 1948 at Wembley Stadium, the Wembley Lions couldn't race there at the start of the season, so they actually shared Wimbledon Stadium with them. So they would they would come, they would come here and race on a Thursday night. 00:28:12:06 - 00:28:22:21 Speaker 2 So Wimbledon was still running on a Monday until they were able to get into the stadium, which might have been middle of the summer. So that's a bit of an ironic twist, but. 00:28:22:23 - 00:28:24:10 Speaker 1 Friendly rivalry. 00:28:24:12 - 00:29:02:23 Speaker 2 Oh yes. Yeah, yeah. Yes. I don't remember any particular incident. I always I remember being interviewed, Freddie Williams was was the Wembley captain and I got to know Freddie very much later in life. And again, another lovely man and I went to a funeral and I was interviewed for an OBE program or something. And I had to say I always used to hate Freddie, Freddie Williams and Tommy Price, the two Wembley riders who we hated because, yes, because they were, they were Wembley. 00:29:03:00 - 00:29:21:20 Speaker 2 So but it was, you know, that was a it was never anything as vicious as sort of soccer seems to be these days. You know what I mean? It was, it was a friendly rivalry on a friendly hatred, if you like. Not a hatred was the strongest, but. 00:29:21:22 - 00:29:22:19 Speaker 3 Thank you. 00:29:22:21 - 00:29:33:04 Speaker 1 Laughing at that. Right. How important was speedway within your social life? 00:29:33:06 - 00:29:55:00 Speaker 2 I suppose it was quite important when I was when I was in my late teens. I don't say it was before I discovered girls, but, you know, when I was still a, you know, a young bachelor. Yes. It was a very important part. I would I would go to speedway as often as I can at least once a week. 00:29:55:00 - 00:30:10:13 Speaker 2 I would travel around a bit sometimes when I had the time. And so yes, it would be quite an important part of of my sporting social life anyway. I mean, I did do some other things, but it was. Yeah, it was quite an important part. 00:30:10:15 - 00:30:18:11 Speaker 1 I feel like I should ask a follow up question. Was it a place you could meet girls? 00:30:18:13 - 00:30:27:01 Speaker 2 No, not really not. Not a place I would have been looking for a I didn't find my girlfriends at Speedway. Let's put it that way. 00:30:27:03 - 00:30:29:13 Speaker 1 That's not on here. 00:30:29:15 - 00:30:33:09 Speaker 2 You can edit later. Whatever you. It's not suitable. 00:30:33:11 - 00:30:42:15 Speaker 1 So. So can you tell us about relationships with other people in the Speedway community who sought touched on this? 00:30:42:17 - 00:31:11:02 Speaker 2 Again pretty limited because it wasn't until I became a referee and began to be involved with the other side of the thought that I actually met and dealt with and became either as colleagues or whatever, familiar with what went on behind the scenes, if you like. So. But socially before that, no, as I say, it wasn't a place to meet girls particularly. 00:31:11:03 - 00:31:43:00 Speaker 2 You went. I went to speed. Way to see the speedway. Not not to find a girlfriend or whatever. And and because of the circumstances, I wasn't one for staying in the bars afterwards or catching up with her. So yeah, it wasn't until, as I say, I became a referee that I began to to have some form of relationships with, with riders and other officials and people like that and understand a bit more about the goings on in the sport. 00:31:43:05 - 00:31:47:03 Speaker 1 That's the kind of thing you could just turn up to on your own and enjoy it evening and go home again. 00:31:47:04 - 00:31:54:03 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And because I enjoyed the sport and I went there just for the sport. Not not for anything else. 00:31:54:09 - 00:31:59:13 Speaker 1 Can you tell us about any, any fan clubs that existed? 00:31:59:18 - 00:32:39:05 Speaker 2 Oh, there were fan clubs, certainly. Yes, there was every, every track had a supporters club. And that came about not at Wimbledon, it came about Wembley. In the mid 30s when they weren't doing very well, spectator wise for some reason or another. And Johnny Hoskins, who was described as the father of speedway, but that's another story, decided a good idea would be to sell, to sell a membership of a supporters club, to encourage, probably with a discounted entry fee or something like that. 00:32:39:06 - 00:33:04:05 Speaker 2 And it immediately caught on, and I believe, I don't know the figures, what they were like. Within a couple of months, we were 20,000 members of the supporters club, if you like. So that that idea caught on. And yeah, every club had a supporters club I never joined, I never felt the need to. I suppose I was, maybe I was a little bit reserved in those days. 00:33:04:05 - 00:33:34:22 Speaker 2 I wasn't a I didn't particularly want to socialize. As I say, I came to watch to watch the sport finish. That was it. And so yes, there were supporters club and there were also fan clubs. There were there were usually run by ladies who would, for a particular rider would have a Ronnie Moore had a fan club and what was her name? 00:33:34:24 - 00:33:58:05 Speaker 2 Dorothy Batson, I think it was her name. She ran his fan club for years and years, and she was a great supporter of Wimbledon. Yeah, I think that was her name, and probably 1 or 2 of the others had their fan clubs. But again, I it wasn't something that I wanted to get involved with, so I didn't join. 00:33:58:07 - 00:33:58:14 Speaker 3 Okay. 00:33:58:17 - 00:34:10:03 Speaker 1 We might have touched on this question earlier by accident, but tell us about your Wimbledon speedway heroes. I think we've done that unless I think there are the heroes that you want to mention. 00:34:10:05 - 00:34:15:22 Speaker 2 No, no, I don't think there were no other heroes. 00:34:15:24 - 00:34:47:11 Speaker 2 I would he wasn't a hero. He was a bit of a inspiring. Ronnie Green was the promoter. Now, Ronnie had started promoting at Wimbledon in the late 1930s and continued after the after the war right through until the 60s. I think, and again, I did send some information through about Ronnie, but Ronnie was very dignified, very, very old school. 00:34:47:12 - 00:35:01:01 Speaker 2 What we would expect in the 50s, you know. But he was apparently I never got to meet him, although I went to his funeral, I never got to meet him. But he was a. 00:35:01:03 - 00:35:28:11 Speaker 2 Strict disciplinarian, a bit of a hard taskmaster, I think, which is why the whole presentation was always clockwork. Everything was in a professional way. But Ronnie, I suppose I was in awe of him, really. He was always the one who announced the rides at the beginning. He wrote the program notes. He was. He was Mr. Wimbledon. Ronnie had had, as I say, I don't know that much about him. 00:35:28:11 - 00:36:13:04 Speaker 2 I know he had been a professional ballroom dancer. I think he was a European Charleston champion in 1920 something, and he first started promoting Bristol in the mid 30s, but he was also connected with the fire brigade and during the during the Blitz, during the war, he was awarded, I think, the British Empire Medal, but he was awarded a medal for for bravery during the Blitz in London and later because his a result of what he saw, he founded or co-founded the Fire Services Benevolent Fund, which as far as I know, is still going on. 00:36:13:04 - 00:36:40:24 Speaker 2 So, so I think I think he also might have got the M.B.E. for that. He had gotten a board for that. So he was very well respected. But but a little bit someone, someone you wouldn't want to fall out with. I guess he'd get you thrown out of his office and out of him and told. So. Yeah, he wasn't a hero, but he was somebody, you know, he had a great deal of respect for at a time when there was a great deal of respect for the older generation. 00:36:40:24 - 00:36:56:20 Speaker 2 And the partly, I suppose, as a result of the war and military service, and people were aware of the, shall we say, where they fitted or and the discipline that went with. So so that's Ronnie, Ronnie Green. 00:36:56:22 - 00:37:01:08 Speaker 1 Can you pick out and tell us about a memorable night for you at Wimbledon? 00:37:01:10 - 00:37:34:11 Speaker 2 Oh yes. And again, I've sent a press report cutting of that England versus USA 1980, I think 81, something like that. The best meeting I ever saw. And anybody who was there will probably agree that that was the best meeting. It was a real cutlass rust, good clean racing, everything you'd want out of a speedway meeting and 18 heats of just absolute magic. 00:37:34:13 - 00:37:54:15 Speaker 2 That was. It was the first postwar official test match between England and the USA, and the Yanks came over with. They were racing here by that time, had had a very good team, but they came over with their flamboyance and their. 00:37:54:17 - 00:38:17:14 Speaker 2 They were. Yeah, without exception. They were California and West Coast, well able to deal with the media, very good speakers, a lot of amateurs, a lot of showmanship. So they were very popular. And at that time as well, we had we had a strong team in England. So it was a good match. In fact, as I say, we had 18 heats of top class racing. 00:38:17:14 - 00:38:25:13 Speaker 2 It ended 54 points each, and I remember walking into the dressing room afterwards. 00:38:25:15 - 00:38:49:22 Speaker 2 Just to see everybody was was happy. And I remember Michael Lee, English world champion, was sitting down there looking just absolutely exhausted. That's the hardest meeting I've ever ridden. And so that summed it up for me. But that was that was the I had the privilege of refereeing that, not having to do much work and experiencing. Yeah, that was without a doubt the best meeting I ever saw. 00:38:49:24 - 00:38:52:12 Speaker 3 Oh thank you. 00:38:52:14 - 00:38:59:08 Speaker 1 Can you tell us about any other entertainment that was there on speedway nights? 00:38:59:10 - 00:39:23:14 Speaker 2 No, there was there was very little. There didn't seem to be the need for other entertainment. There would be music playing during between races and there would be announcements, and occasionally we'd have maybe a little novelty, like a side bit of sidecar racing or something like that. But that was that was very rare entertainment in those days. It seemed that was enough for everybody. 00:39:23:14 - 00:39:49:06 Speaker 2 They didn't need to put on any extra shows or marching bands or singers, dancers, whatever. It didn't didn't appear to be necessary and it didn't exist. I remember one one said a bit of a novelty. Ronnie Greene introduced an idea that he would make a program draw. Programs were usually numbered, so he would draw, I don't know, half a dozen numbers out of a box. 00:39:49:07 - 00:40:25:20 Speaker 2 And people who own those programs would be allowed to watch the meeting. Second half of the meeting from the inside of the track. And Ronnie built a little, little, little area marginally fenced off where they could go and watch the second half. And believe me, watching it from the infield is quite a different experience. But my dad, who by that time was going with a neighbor every week, won it one week and and they went the following week and watched the second half from the inside. 00:40:25:20 - 00:40:46:18 Speaker 2 It was a, you know, a tremendous experience that was just a little bit of a novelty. But there was no other, really no other sideshows or anything like that. You know, there would be there would be sellers walking around the stadium selling the magazines. There were a couple of major magazines, so people would often by the magazine and sit and read that during the interval. 00:40:46:24 - 00:41:03:23 Speaker 2 But there was no need for anything else. The interval would be just music and general conversation, and maybe people went to buy whatever refreshments were available, but I don't really have any recollection of the need for anything else other than, you know, for writers on the track and everything else. 00:41:04:00 - 00:41:07:10 Speaker 1 And was the music life? Was there a band or was it recorded music? 00:41:07:11 - 00:41:09:05 Speaker 2 Oh, recorded music. 00:41:09:07 - 00:41:10:15 Speaker 1 Including the march at the beginning? 00:41:10:16 - 00:41:15:17 Speaker 2 Oh yes. Yeah. Blaze away was always recorded. 00:41:15:19 - 00:41:21:07 Speaker 1 Can you tell us about traveling to any away meetings or even overseas? 00:41:21:09 - 00:41:40:17 Speaker 2 I never went overseas as a fan. I remember going to went down. I would go to some of the London tracks to visit. As I say, I did manage to get to all the London tracks. Remember going to Southampton once, which was a bit of a slog on the train, but that's probably as far as I ventured away. 00:41:40:17 - 00:41:50:05 Speaker 2 But I didn't have to go very far, so that was it. Overseas, I didn't get the chance to do until I became a referee. 00:41:50:07 - 00:41:59:13 Speaker 1 And what do you think the role of Speedway, along with other sports played in this area around here? 00:41:59:15 - 00:42:28:04 Speaker 2 Well, other sport. Wimbledon of course, is famous for tennis. We never a big fan of. But it was it was available. You'd go down to Wimbledon, maybe you still can at 5:00 and pick up tickets. So as people came out after the big games, you could go in for the evening. I did that once or twice and there was Wimbledon Football Club just down the road in Plow Lane as they were then, which I would. 00:42:28:04 - 00:42:41:11 Speaker 2 I would follow but not travel around. I mean, what's the home matches and occasion? Not never, never the biggest of fans, but I still follow them still, but from a distance even now. Sir. 00:42:41:13 - 00:42:48:17 Speaker 1 Do you think that had this being here kind of had an effect on the people around it. 00:42:48:19 - 00:42:49:18 Speaker 2 The people living here? 00:42:49:19 - 00:42:51:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:42:51:14 - 00:43:10:15 Speaker 2 I don't know. I think as I say, it was it was not the cosmopolitan area it is now. And I guess there were a lot of people who would be living locally who would just walk down to the stadium on a Monday night, and that's the way it was. You know, there was not a lot else to do. 00:43:10:16 - 00:43:24:13 Speaker 2 You'd go to Tooting, I suppose, and, you know, go to the Granada Cinema and watch whatever show was going on there. But there was not a lot else to do. So that would be the effect. There was never. 00:43:24:15 - 00:43:42:16 Speaker 2 There was there was often traveling support. You know, you might get a coach or two or for big matches, several coaches who had been traveling supporters. But generally speaking, it was the local people who were supporting it and seemed to be quite content with it. 00:43:42:18 - 00:43:46:08 Speaker 1 Can you tell us what your job was and how did you get it? 00:43:46:10 - 00:43:50:04 Speaker 2 My job, my job. I worked for an insurance broker. 00:43:50:05 - 00:43:50:16 Speaker 1 Oh, I. 00:43:50:18 - 00:43:51:08 Speaker 2 Made me. 00:43:51:11 - 00:43:52:02 Speaker 1 My speedway. 00:43:52:03 - 00:43:57:12 Speaker 2 My speedway job. How did I get my speedway job? 00:43:57:14 - 00:44:21:07 Speaker 2 Interesting story. In those days, you had to be a member of a motorcycle club. And before. Before you could be accepted as an official. So we would go every week to West Ham on a Tuesday night. And when the when the match was over, we would go to the bar and have a couple of beers. We were that old by then. 00:44:21:09 - 00:44:47:11 Speaker 2 So there was a group of us who used to go, who included the secretary of the motorcycle club I was a member of. So on one occasion we were standing and I was complaining about the referee and saying. And so my friend said, you think you can do better? And I said something like, well, I'd do better than this idiot or something like that. 00:44:47:12 - 00:45:08:02 Speaker 2 So he said, right. He said, I'm going to submit your name. For which he did. And about six months later, I had a letter from the Speedway Control Board saying I'd been accepted for training as a referee, and that was it. That's that changed my life. Speedway wise, anyway. 00:45:08:04 - 00:45:11:16 Speaker 3 Quite a bit, yeah. 00:45:11:18 - 00:45:14:09 Speaker 1 Then tell us about the role. 00:45:14:11 - 00:45:39:02 Speaker 2 Well, the role again, my, my criticism of the referee was obviously quite unfounded, but it was based on what I thought he'd done and shouldn't have done. It's a much more complicated job than you think it is. It's not just sitting here starting the races and stuff like that, but it has involved that being a referee means you basically have control over the discipline and the running of the meeting. 00:45:39:02 - 00:46:08:18 Speaker 2 If you like things like in those days, it would be inspecting the machines to make sure there was a machine examiner. But you would you keep an eye on him and sometimes he would want some advice from you that involve that inspecting the track to make sure he was safe, and anything making sure that the the teams were properly set up. 00:46:08:20 - 00:46:48:19 Speaker 2 Speedway is a sport that relies very much on statistics and average. So there's for a team. For example, might be set a maximum average of 40 points and their team would be made up of individual riders totalling less than 40 points in the average. So you'd have to check things like that. And then you would have then you would go up to the referee's control box, test all the equipment, make sure it was working all right, and and then be in control of the start of the races, calling the riders out. 00:46:48:20 - 00:46:57:15 Speaker 2 If they were hanging a back and putting them on a two minute warning to get to the to the tapes and be ready. 00:46:57:17 - 00:47:24:02 Speaker 2 To control the starts to make sure they weren't cheating and disciplining them. If if they were watching the racing like closely to make sure that any incidents that occurred you were aware of and could make judgments on from a safety point of view, stopping a race whenever there was an incident that was a safety problem. That's put it that way. 00:47:24:04 - 00:47:49:08 Speaker 2 And I'm making a judgment on the on the cause of the of the stoppage. And then assuming a meeting went smoothly, off you went home, typed up a report and looked forward to the next one. That makes it sound simple, but it's it was quite a job, and it was an eye opener to me because I didn't realise there was so much involved. 00:47:49:10 - 00:47:51:02 Speaker 1 Quite a responsibility. 00:47:51:05 - 00:48:08:13 Speaker 2 Oh, yes. Yeah. Again, as I say, you know, it seems easy, like any, any sport. I suppose you criticise the referee without realising all the other things that that he or she has to do and has to be aware of. So that was the same sort of scenario. But yeah, very responsible. 00:48:08:14 - 00:48:10:18 Speaker 3 And and. 00:48:10:20 - 00:48:15:22 Speaker 1 Let's see if this is relevant. How did your work at the stadium progress. Did you role change. 00:48:15:23 - 00:48:17:05 Speaker 2 As a as a referee? 00:48:17:06 - 00:48:23:14 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:48:23:16 - 00:48:53:14 Speaker 2 It didn't really change or it changed in terms of things were developing the way we reported stuff and a bit more paperwork and things like that. But then I was fortunate enough to be nominated as an international referee where the scenario was a little different. It was it was run under the same general rules, but with a maybe a lot more emphasis on protocol and, and stuff like that. 00:48:53:14 - 00:49:08:10 Speaker 2 So that was interesting. But that was on or I was happy to, to absorb and yeah, so carried on like that for another 20 years. 00:49:08:12 - 00:49:15:12 Speaker 1 Yeah actually because mostly we talk about Wimbledon. But can you tell us a little bit about some of the other stadiums that you might. 00:49:15:12 - 00:49:18:05 Speaker 2 Have been. Well, in this country or. 00:49:18:07 - 00:49:19:10 Speaker 1 We referee. 00:49:19:14 - 00:49:48:18 Speaker 2 As a referee. Well Wimbledon was, was yes. At the time was a was a good, nice modern stadium by then until it began to deteriorate in this country. Wembley of course Wembley. The old Wembley was Wembley was a huge place but. And was a little, a little empty, shall we say, when there's only 20,000 people there. White city was another one. 00:49:48:18 - 00:50:06:23 Speaker 2 White City, London, which was a vast stadium but was disappointingly sounded empty when there weren't that many spectators here. So those were. Those were the stadium's, I suppose that. 00:50:07:00 - 00:50:43:15 Speaker 2 I remember most from the London area. New Cross was a lovely little track, only 220 yards long and interesting racing, but it wasn't much of a stadium, to be honest. But then stadiums weren't much in those days. I'm talking about the late 60s, early 70s, shall we say, when there wasn't the emphasis on as there is now and I luxury, if you like, sort of level which I know is brought on by things like, you know, the Bradford fire and the Hillsborough disaster and stuff. 00:50:43:15 - 00:51:14:05 Speaker 2 So health and safety became much more relevant and people now demand a level of comfort when they go to see any entertainment. So and stadiums were not up to that standard certainly and possibly still aren't. That's another story. Otherwise, yes. When I reached international level, I would I would see tracks in other countries like Sweden, Sweden, have some lovely stadium, all of these stadium, which is where they played football as well. 00:51:14:11 - 00:51:20:05 Speaker 2 That was a nice, modern, well-appointed stadium. 00:51:20:07 - 00:51:45:16 Speaker 2 Stockholm was another, had another. A lot of them were really good quality stadium. Poland now has got some fantastic stadium, but it's very big time still in Poland and with a lot of, I think, local authority and EU support, they have built some very nice, very comfortable and very popular stadiums. 00:51:45:18 - 00:51:55:01 Speaker 1 About Poland. Yes. Yeah. You talk us through then what your day would be on a typical on a typical race day. 00:51:55:03 - 00:51:58:01 Speaker 2 It depends what where I was actually. 00:51:58:02 - 00:51:59:11 Speaker 1 Let's go for Wimbledon. 00:51:59:15 - 00:52:19:09 Speaker 2 If I go for Wimbledon. All right. Let's say I was refereeing at Wimbledon. I would go to work first. I worked in the city and probably only Wimbledon. I might need to slip off a little bit early, but generally, yeah, I would. 00:52:19:11 - 00:52:44:09 Speaker 2 Depending on the circumstances, I might, I might have driven my car, I don't know, or come by train. So I'd arrive at the stadium about an hour and a half before start time so I could do all the there were maybe two hours before and yeah, I'd go through the procedures that I've already described to you. So. So that would be it. 00:52:44:09 - 00:53:11:16 Speaker 2 And 10:00 or thereabouts and everything's finished. I'm jumping back on the train. Or was, I say maybe walking down to Tooting Broadway Station, which is a lot further than it used to be. And yeah, home. And yes, when I got home and I always made a point of typing my report before I went to bed. So it might be it might be quite a late night, but not a late as a later night. 00:53:11:16 - 00:53:18:16 Speaker 2 As if, for example, I'd been to Exeter when I didn't get home until 1:00 in the morning and still had a report to type, but that was my discipline. 00:53:18:16 - 00:53:22:03 Speaker 1 But thank you. That entailed the early bit. 00:53:22:05 - 00:53:22:20 Speaker 2 Okay, good. 00:53:22:22 - 00:53:26:08 Speaker 1 Thank you. And. 00:53:26:10 - 00:53:35:19 Speaker 1 I had done a memorable evening. How were you affected by the change by the closure of Wimbledon Stadium? 00:53:35:21 - 00:54:03:13 Speaker 2 Personally, I wasn't affected as I think I said. I did the last meeting here at the top level and that I think that was an emotional night, shall we say, for all the circumstances I've described. And it was very wet, it was pouring with rain and it was a meeting which probably should never have gone on, but it was going to be the last ever meeting. 00:54:03:13 - 00:54:12:19 Speaker 2 And I do remember on this occasion I got all the riders together in the dressing room before the meeting, and it was pouring with rain. 00:54:12:21 - 00:54:37:00 Speaker 2 To basically to tell them what I thought and persuade them if they needed persuading that they should ride and put on a show and stood by the side of me was Barry Briggs. He was there for the last meeting and he, he, he backed me up. And basically between us, we, you know, we said to the riders, look, put on as good a show as you can. 00:54:37:00 - 00:54:58:15 Speaker 2 Just be careful. It's not it's not important from any other point of view except it's a nostalgia night's that last meeting. So. And I said if ever if it does get too dangerous. I'll call it off. And in fact we've got I think 12 races done. And then I just said, well that's enough. You know, you don't need any more and it's not going to get any better. 00:54:58:17 - 00:55:22:15 Speaker 2 So that was I suppose that affected me a little because it was an emotional, emotional day, emotional meeting. But other than that, I can't say that it did me in any more than other tracks that had closed down, and particularly since, as I say, I was no longer a fan. I was an official and I was traveling around to all, all various different tracks. 00:55:22:15 - 00:55:43:16 Speaker 2 So and I had no allegiance to any of them. So I was naturally as a as a follower of Speedway, I was always upset, if you like, when tracks had to close down, but you know, that was it. It was the way things were at the time. I never carried on being that way, I'm afraid. 00:55:43:18 - 00:56:01:17 Speaker 1 Thank you. As a referee, as a word that's come up a few times when we've been speaking to people and it's a skull. So did you witness any skullduggery? I mean, in terms of tactics or dodgy goings or that you're happy to talk about? 00:56:01:19 - 00:56:28:09 Speaker 2 Frankly, no, I mean skullduggery. I'm not sure that that's a word I would, I would have used there were obviously there were there were little feuds. You know, in any competitive sport, there are people who don't get on for one reason or another or have experienced a bad situation with somebody else. And there's a, you know, a bit of the equivalent of road rage, I suppose. 00:56:28:10 - 00:56:45:02 Speaker 2 And yes, there were there were occasions such as that where there was unfair riding, where I had to take action as a referee, and I did when I, when I saw it, I was. 00:56:45:04 - 00:57:21:16 Speaker 2 Fairly, I was careful not to get close enough to riders at the time to know what was going on in their personal lives, for example, there would be. I remember an occasion when a lad without racing on the track, one of his team mates was in the car park with his wife. I didn't know that was going on at the time, not that it would affect my judgment, I hope, but so I was quite careful to keep an arm's length relationship with with riders whilst I was a referee. 00:57:21:16 - 00:57:33:01 Speaker 2 I'm happy to say I, I, I class many of them now as friends rather than some people I had to deal with. So. 00:57:33:03 - 00:57:40:18 Speaker 2 There has been a question of not skullduggery, a little bit of. 00:57:40:20 - 00:58:08:06 Speaker 2 Financial manipulation, shall we say. Sometimes it was, it was, it was suggested very often that second half races that I talked about that you would have for elimination races and then a final, the winner of each elimination race would go to the final. And it was, I think, quite often understood between the riders that whatever the prize money was, they would split it between and whoever, whatever the result. 00:58:08:08 - 00:58:32:17 Speaker 2 Now that was never a public knowledge. I think it happened quite a lot and might on occasion to have led to a feud between riders who weren't properly shared out. I don't know what the arrangement, and I didn't want to know. What I was concerned about is what they were doing on the track and how they were behaving and how they were racing. 00:58:32:19 - 00:58:46:19 Speaker 2 So I was very, very clear. As I said, keep arm's length approach. There was quite a famous situation some years ago where the people newspaper did a. 00:58:46:21 - 00:59:15:22 Speaker 2 A series, items about race rigging, which happened, if you like, with things like the qualification for the World Championship, when somebody needed an extra point and would have said to somebody else, maybe, can you let me win this one? Or let me keep behind me on this one, because I need the extra point now that that may or may not have gone on it possibly did. 00:59:15:24 - 00:59:50:10 Speaker 2 There wasn't much that I could do about it. I wasn't aware of it, obviously, and whether it still goes on, I would, I would doubt it, but I think it's more strictly controlled now than it's ever been, particularly at world Championship level and international level. So I don't think it's a problem. I hope it isn't, but it possibly happens in any way is one sport which is not only an individual sport, but it's also a team sport. 00:59:50:10 - 01:00:17:10 Speaker 2 So most sports are one or the other. So it's a situation that is unlikely to occur in most other sports. But it's just interesting that not only is it speedway a team sport, but also individuals who are hopeful of winning the world championship, every riders would say to me, you know, I want to be world wide race. I want to be world champion. 01:00:17:10 - 01:00:43:09 Speaker 2 It doesn't matter. You know, he's starting from down here. So the world championship was the ultimate goal. And so you can understand that, you know, occasionally some little arrangements might be made. But skullduggery I wouldn't you know. Yes, there were feuds and yes, there were, there were riders who were deliberately. 01:00:43:11 - 01:01:03:15 Speaker 2 Knocked off on occasions from for a, the reason of a few days or, you know, or I'll get you for that mixed with which, you know, I think happened. But again if they did wrong, they'd be thrown out the race. 01:01:03:17 - 01:01:12:22 Speaker 1 Thank you. Yeah. Because you mentioned earlier gentlemanly behavior and less gentlemanly because a kind of a spectrum of riding. 01:01:13:03 - 01:01:37:00 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, some were, some were seen as harder riders and maybe the fans would say were dirty riders because they pushed the boundaries. You we say, but you always knew who the hard riders were. And, you know, you'd make sure that they behave themselves. Well, you were in charge anyway. That was my attitude. Some were. Yeah. 01:01:37:01 - 01:01:44:01 Speaker 2 Some had a reputation of being hard wired as others were. Gentlemen riders. You we say. 01:01:44:03 - 01:01:49:12 Speaker 4 There were sort of things would you be looking out for during a race? What sort of infections? 01:01:49:14 - 01:02:19:11 Speaker 2 Well, one of one of the things dad telling me this was what they called boring. And it's not the standard of racing. It's it's as riders go into a bend, the following rider might push him a bit harder into the bend, faster to to bore a hole between the inner edge and the other rider, if you like. It was called boring and that's where, you know, quite a bit of passing has occurred and still occurs, which is which is good. 01:02:19:13 - 01:02:22:22 Speaker 2 But. 01:02:22:24 - 01:02:42:00 Speaker 2 That was that was the main, you know, that was the main thing you watched out there were there were obviously things that might have gone wrong, you know, a ride out a motor problem or something and drifts out at the bend and take somebody else into the fence or that sort of thing. But that was, you know, that wasn't skullduggery or intentional very often. 01:02:42:02 - 01:02:43:17 Speaker 2 So. 01:02:43:19 - 01:02:51:07 Speaker 1 And would you chat to the riders, particularly if you knew that it was a hard rider about to compete? Might you have a word with him at first or. 01:02:51:08 - 01:02:51:20 Speaker 2 No. 01:02:51:20 - 01:02:52:23 Speaker 1 No. 01:02:53:00 - 01:03:15:05 Speaker 2 No, I always said, I mean, I've had, shall we say, run ins or just disagreements with riders because the judgment I've made. But, you know, I've always said the next meeting is, you know, the sheet is clean. I know there were 1 or 2 referees who like to go in and pick out a rider and say, you, you caught me last time. 01:03:15:05 - 01:03:28:07 Speaker 2 I'll, I'll be looking for you. I never watched a rider particularly, and I certainly would never go to a rider and say, watch out, because I've got my eye on you tonight because I'm last week or. 01:03:28:09 - 01:03:31:05 Speaker 1 And. 01:03:31:07 - 01:03:34:13 Speaker 1 I need to ask you about the dangers of speedway. 01:03:34:15 - 01:03:35:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. 01:03:35:14 - 01:03:37:11 Speaker 1 Obviously there are some. 01:03:37:11 - 01:04:04:01 Speaker 2 But the danger of speedway. Yes. When you've got four very high powered bikes going around the track, it sometimes as much as 90 miles an hour without brakes. Then. Yes, accident do happen. And I have seen some, some very bad accidents. I have witnessed fatalities on the track thankfully happen rarely, but it's a risk. And yeah, there is a risk of injury. 01:04:04:02 - 01:04:24:18 Speaker 2 Serious injury. They take I take the broken leg or you know, fractured shoulder as a, you know, part of the course and they just sit out for six weeks or whatever. Unlike the footballers who were off for the rest of the season. So they take the hard knocks and they prepare for that. 01:04:24:20 - 01:04:45:15 Speaker 2 I think, you know, Ty Wolf and last world champion, three times world champion, had a very serious accident beginning of last year. He was in an induced coma for a week or more, ten days. And he worked hard to recover. He's now just started racing again, hopefully as good as he was. But that's the sort of attitude they have. 01:04:45:16 - 01:05:03:18 Speaker 2 You know, they take the knocks. If it happens it happens. It's a little bit like that. But yes, it is a dangerous it is a dangerous sport. And the risks are sometimes overlooked, shall we say. But yeah, there are tough breed. 01:05:03:20 - 01:05:21:10 Speaker 1 Okay. Thank you. So I'm just going to go on to the final section and we might there might be some more questions that emerge. This is about changes. So how did Wimbledon Speedway change over the years? 01:05:21:12 - 01:05:50:16 Speaker 2 I think the main thing that changed was the track because the track was shortened. Originally the track ran adjacent to the greyhound track, so it was immediately inside. And I think again, probably in the mid 60s may coincide with a change of race night. But the stock car people started racing here and they wanted they wanted a concrete track. 01:05:50:22 - 01:06:25:19 Speaker 2 And the solution was to shorten the speedway track so that the outside both bends could be concreted over, and then a shorter track inside if you like, keeping the original straights to something. Anyway, the shorter track, which I think actually improved the racing, it was good. It was a success from that point of view. So that changed, as I say, the old stay in which was destroyed in the Blitz was again mid to late 50s, maybe was rebuilt. 01:06:25:19 - 01:06:50:21 Speaker 2 That was a modernisation. And the Greyhound Racing Association, who owned the stadium or ran the stadium, did improve the infield by building some nice little flower areas and make it not ideal for speedway because we like to keep the infield clear. But, you know, so the stadium looked nice and nice and tidy. It was, it was. 01:06:50:23 - 01:07:20:12 Speaker 2 In its time. I didn't say it's state of the art, but it was. It was a very comfortable stadium, unfortunately. I think with with the way that sports, greyhound racing and speedway were concerned were declining in terms of numbers, the investment wasn't, wasn't there and the stadium tended to fall into a little bit of disrepair. I think at the end there was actually one part of the track which was which was closed off because it wasn't needed anymore. 01:07:20:12 - 01:07:31:06 Speaker 2 But again, doesn't give a nice, very nice appearance when half the track is cordoned off, completely vacant. 01:07:31:08 - 01:07:42:12 Speaker 1 What about. Well, I'm interested in changes in safety because there's a referee and a professional. Did you see the safety? And you mentioned there was a time before health and safety. 01:07:42:14 - 01:07:57:05 Speaker 2 Oh, yes. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. The stadium's generally tracks generally had to had to improve. I think the first step was or the first major step was that following. 01:07:57:07 - 01:08:42:24 Speaker 2 A particularly serious accident, including one fatality at one stage, the lighting standards used to be almost immediately outside the track and would look over the track. If I can put it that way, which meant that any rider going through the fence and hitting a light standard would sustained some very serious injuries. And this occurred, as I say, there was one particularly serious accident which I think prompted the powers that be Speedway Control Board to decide that there must be a clear two meter gap between the lighting standards or any any solid. 01:08:43:01 - 01:09:00:21 Speaker 2 Standard like that, and that had to be complied with, otherwise the track license wouldn't be. So that was the first major step in safety terms. But then the other major step has been. 01:09:00:23 - 01:09:08:08 Speaker 2 Air fences. We watched the Motorcycle GP series develop air fences to protect their riders when they went off track. And even I mean, even where there was a huge gap between primitive fences and as it was in motor GP, they had developed systems of, I think initially to protect marshals and things like that, but they developed a system of air fences, basically inflatable cushions, and that has brought a tremendous improvement in safety. 01:09:45:04 - 01:10:22:00 Speaker 2 Now, every track, certainly every track in this country and all the major countries now have to have, either by national or international rules, have to have a proper air fence to protect the riders. And as I say, that's that's seen a great improvement because we, you know, we have witnessed what potentially would have been very serious accidents in the past, effectively involve simply the rider walking off the track and, you know, without being hurt. 01:10:22:01 - 01:10:50:21 Speaker 2 It is still a dangerous sport. One of the biggest dangers is if a rider falls, a rider behind him has considerable difficulty in avoiding him, or may do if his close behind. If it's proper racing and maybe the worst risk at the moment, if you like in current speedway, is is still the fact that you might be hit by a following rider and you have no control or the riders way better protective clothing. 01:10:50:21 - 01:11:20:11 Speaker 2 Now they wear neck braces. They wear. Some of them were where an inflatable inner suit, if you like, which in milliseconds will inflate as soon as as soon as the rider is connected to to the handlebars of the bike, for example, as soon as that becomes disconnected, that will expand him. Not quite to sort of I don't know, it's, you know, it's safe. 01:11:20:13 - 01:11:47:23 Speaker 2 And so safety clothing has very much improved back protectors, neck protectors and that sort of thing makes it a lot less dangerous, shall we say. But I have been. I have seen fatalities. And, you know, it's not never a pleasant thing, but when you're involved as an efficient as well, it becomes much more difficult to deal with, shall we say. 01:11:48:00 - 01:11:49:06 Speaker 1 Are you still refereeing? 01:11:49:10 - 01:12:10:16 Speaker 2 No. They finally decided I was too old. No, I, I finished refereeing the age for refereeing and international level used to be 60 years of age, now 65 I think, but I. So I decided to finish refereeing at the age of 60, having done. 01:12:10:18 - 01:12:24:01 Speaker 2 40 years at it. But then I got then I moved over to become the secretary of the Grand Prix series. So that gave me a continuing interest for another 20 years. 01:12:24:03 - 01:12:27:08 Speaker 1 For a whole other subject. Oh yeah. 01:12:27:09 - 01:12:28:06 Speaker 2 Maybe. 01:12:28:07 - 01:12:40:20 Speaker 1 Let's see. Well, maybe we might. I don't know how we're doing the time because you been fantastic. So looking back, what did Wimbledon Speedway mean to you? What does it mean to you? 01:12:40:22 - 01:12:58:01 Speaker 2 It's a it is a chapter in my life which was important at the time. And as I say, it still is important in terms of you know, my dynasty, if you like my involvement. So I, I will always have a soft spot, if you like, for, for Wimbledon in relation to any other track that I had been to or regularly at. So yes, it made a it was one of these things. It was at my growing up stage, if you like, which was important. 01:13:19:13 - 01:13:45:11 Speaker 2 But without that, if I had no come along here with me dead in 1952, I might have, you know, who knows where my life would have taken me or whatever. So I don't know. It doesn't be. Well, I don't know what it would have happen, but that's the way it went and it it opened up ultimately, you know, a very major part of my life, obviously, but not necessarily Wimbledon. 01:13:45:11 - 01:13:55:13 Speaker 2 Wimbledon was in that particular era, and I still have a soft spot. I still have a soft spot for the area, having lived here, but that's as far as it goes. I think. 01:13:55:15 - 01:13:57:00 Speaker 1 Kind of got you started. 01:13:57:01 - 01:14:00:05 Speaker 2 It did indeed. Yeah. Yeah, right. 01:14:00:05 - 01:14:05:20 Speaker 1 Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to tell us that we haven't yet covered? 01:14:05:22 - 01:14:17:04 Speaker 2 I don't think so. I think we've covered most, most things that I think you'll be interested in any way, you know, Wimbledon wise. Let's put it that way. 01:14:17:06 - 01:14:28:11 Speaker 2 Oh, I had many, many happy hours and very few unhappy hours at Wimbledon over the years. So, no, I think if you're happy, I'm, you know, we've covered it. 01:14:28:12 - 01:14:29:23 Speaker 4 It was amazing and comprehensive. 01:14:30:02 - 01:14:32:11 Speaker 1 Was I thought any anything that. 01:14:32:13 - 01:14:41:05 Speaker 5 I'm just curious about one thing when you said that sometimes the riders pushed each other off of your bikes. If you saw something like that, what would be the punishment? 01:14:41:06 - 01:14:42:22 Speaker 2 Oh, the punishment was thrown out of the race. 01:14:42:22 - 01:14:44:07 Speaker 4 Hold on. 01:14:44:09 - 01:14:45:04 Speaker 1 To the other way. 01:14:45:06 - 01:14:46:01 Speaker 2 Oh, sorry. 01:14:46:05 - 01:14:49:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. So if you saw something like that, what would be. 01:14:49:01 - 01:15:22:05 Speaker 2 The best part of my job? You know what? What what the rules say is that if the race has to be stopped in the interest of safety, which is what would happen if a rider fell off, generally then the referee has to decide who was responsible for that. Who was the primary cause of the stoppage? Now, if a rider had been particularly hard in pushing another rider off his line or pushing him off, or even then yes, I would, I would disqualify him from the race. 01:15:22:07 - 01:15:27:22 Speaker 2 That was it. The race would be restarted and he'd be out, you know, in the pits. 01:15:27:24 - 01:15:31:15 Speaker 5 It was only for one race. Not not for the season or. 01:15:31:17 - 01:15:39:02 Speaker 2 Not for the season. No, I didn't have power to do that. I could, I could I never had to, thankfully, but I. 01:15:39:04 - 01:15:55:01 Speaker 2 I could disqualify a rider for the whole meeting if it had been sufficiently serious. If, for example, it happened more than once, if I could see that something was building up there and it happened more than once, then maybe I would have to say, right, you're out, you know, load up and go home. But more than that, I couldn't. 01:15:55:02 - 01:16:05:00 Speaker 2 I had no power to make a ban that would have to be done at a tribunal or by powers greater than mine. 01:16:05:02 - 01:16:10:07 Speaker 1 And you get a picture of that. How common would it be that you'd have to discipline people? 01:16:10:12 - 01:16:27:19 Speaker 2 Oh, not vague. No. The discipline generally was just to find the cause of that stoppage, the race being stopped. And it wasn't really a disciplinary matter. It was an observational thing. And I had to make that call. 01:16:27:21 - 01:17:05:05 Speaker 2 I can't think that on more than very few occasions, I actually had to disqualify a rider for where I was a dangerous riding, which would, which would, would involve disqualification from that race may be a fine. I had the power to fine riders for misdemeanours, but those occasions were very few and far between. So there would be there would be where maybe a team manager would say, if you get the chance, knock him off the other side, you know, because it's a team sport and, you know, teams, managers and promoters wanted a win. 01:17:05:05 - 01:17:11:06 Speaker 2 So there was always that little bit of aggression available but was rarely abused here. We seen.